Shanghai Surprise (Neoskynet Director's Cuts)

[Heliosurge]

It says the 5k+ has +9% increased sharpness. Meaning likely +9% more screen utilation over base 5k. (Smaller screen)

[Heliosurge]

Well we know Denis is in the forum why not ask him?

Being I presume he is bilingual & different culture we both might be reading into the video incorrectly.

[risa2000]

@Sjef

Correct, but it would definitely look (way) less sharp. Change it only 1 mm and it becomes unsharp already.

Alright, I was just doing a mental experiment, but to really stand-up for it, I would have to know the lens characteristics and do some math, which I guess you simply avoided by moving the lenses in your headset. Therefore I stand corrected.

@Sjef

Whether the 8k or the 5k+ is the better HMD. If people are undecisive between a 7.2 megapixel HMD and a 17.7 Megapixel, then there’s something wrong with that 17.7 one.

I do not consider this outcome to be unexpected. Pimax stated already during the KS that they did not perceive much of a difference between 8K and 5K (in visual quality). I guess this is because both are fed the same input res, and even you may try to upscale it any way you want, you can hardly get more information out of it.

The only difference I was expecting was the lesser SDE, but it could also be so the difference is at the range where some people simply do not care. And since it seems 5K+ has possibly some other advantages, I can see why people are indecisive.

[Sjef]

@Frc

Where that strange phrase come from? sure their respective images are difficult to make a part it’s like comparing a 1080p signal on good HD tv and on 4K Tv upscaled.

I don’t think that’s a good comparison. TV’s don’t suffer from SDE. HMD’s do. If you try the Pimax 4k (not the crappy BE version but really the original one), then you’ll know how good the upscaling works and how hard it’s to see pixels.

If you compare the Vive Pro with the Pimax 4k, there’s really a big difference in terms of SDE/being able to see pixels. None of the Berlin testers reported a really big difference. In fact, nobody was ‘wow-ed’ by the Pimax 8k and testers have a hard time choosing between the two. That alone tells me there’s something seriously wrong with it.

[Sjef]

@risa2000

I guess this is because both are fed the same input res, and even you may try to upscale it any way you want, you can hardly get more information out of it.

Compare the Pimax 4k to the Odyssey or Vive Pro and tell me that’s not a big difference. Even though the Vive Pro/Odyssey run at higher native resolution it’s really a nobrainer which one to choose (well apart from colour/brightness difference of course OLED vs LCD)

[VR-TECH]

That is the problem with the M1 I noticed. The transition from center to periphery, at around 120-130 FOV more or less. The lens transition is where it was jarring on testing due to image swim. Curious if this was solved via software improvement on M2?

I take after the 16th, NDA lift

[Frc]

My point is that nothing is wrong with the 8k headset because the only goal of having 2 4K screens was to reduce SDE. Your phrase would be ok if your were taking of the 8kx wich is a real 2x4k head set…

So from the start the 8k could not be much better than a good 5k. ( except for the SDE)

[Frc]

@Sjef

you compare the Vive Pro with the Pimax 4k, there’s really a big difference in terms of SDE/being able to see pixels. None of the Berlin testers reported a really big difference. In fact, nobody was ‘wow-ed’ by the Pimax 8k and testers have a hard time choosing between the two. That alone tells me there’s something seriously wrong with it.

Who says the subjective perception of SDE is linear or that from a threshold point most people are happy 68%++ with what they see? Before jumping to conclusion I will wait the review of our 3 amigos. And I’m not telling you this point is not important …

[VRGIMP27]

Even though the 8k has two 4k displays, (in theory being “better” ) the unit is still only being fed 2 1440p signals just like the 5k plus is.

Pimax probably thought the 4k panels would be useful to lessen SDE, and they were probably right, but when they found smaller displays for 5k plus, and got better panel utilization, (maybe even better fill factor,) it mitigated the gains on 8k to a degree it seems.

If you were going to move the panel closer or further away, (which would need to happen to get better panel coverage,) you would need optics tailored to that change. The issue is, we dont know the properties of the current lenses, so its hard to say what could be done.

We will hsve to wait and see. Either way, both sound awesome.

This whole issue of utilization/sharpness/detail could be mitigated by an input resolution bump on the 8k. SDE might be a little more noticable with a higher input resolution, but detail would be increased.

[destraudo]

wait, how is what you just said not covered by nda?

[mimaximax]

If I understood correctly, sjefdeklerk implied that while 4K and 8K headsets are both being upscalled, the perceived resolution still may be obviously way better on the 4K.

[destraudo]

i think this thread has ventured into wild speculation territory, and i think we will only get answers of value come the 16th. or when pimax releases official specs on the headsets in terms of ppd (which i am sure they could) hint hint.

I really wish the pimax camera guy was still posting. QQ would have loved some comparison pics of pixel grids ppd etc.

If testers can do this in a controlled comparative way it would be awesome to see come 16th

[neal_white_iii]

@Sjef

Ok so for you it’s perfectly normal that an 21440p device and a 24k device look pretty much the same. I think anybody can see that’s not normal. We’ll see in 2 weeks…

It’s more likely that “an 21440p device and a 24k device look pretty much the same”, when both are displaying the same 2560x1440 input res. To me, it sounds like the color and brightness were similar, and that pixels and SDE are nearly imperceptible on both.

[neal_white_iii]

@Sjef

I don’t think that’s a good comparison. TV’s don’t suffer from SDE. HMD’s do.

And so does your TV, when you get close, with a magnifying lens (like the one inside a VR headset). That’s certainly the case for my 4K monitor, black pixel boarders are clearly visible.

[Frc]

@neal_white_iii

And so does your TV

Thanks for the help beside not much else comparison can be done a VR headset is 2 screens in front of your nose. And just for reference I have some friends that says that 4K isn’t enough for a TV because they see the pixel lines…

[Heliosurge]

Well what most don’t realize is the bigger the panel the less ppi. 30" 4k Monitor will look better than a 60" 4k Monitor.

[neal_white_iii]

@Frc

…I have some friends that says that 4K isn’t enough for a TV because they see the pixel lines…

Have they considered that simply adding more pixels does not guarantee that the pixel lines will be less visible? Consider these 2 hypothetical screens; the illustration is a comparison of the pixels of 2 screens that are of the same size, say 65", and one is 4K and the other is 8K and has pixels half the size with thicker boarders.

Step back from your screen and focus on the black horizontal lines. This particular 8K screen has worse pixel lines. Before you dismiss this as unrepresentative, consider the upcoming LED micro array display technology. Initially, the black boarders will be thicker than that of an LCD because of the limits of placing millions of tiny physical components onto a huge screen.

As you can see in the illustration, more pixels does not always mean less SDE.

[Sjef]

@Wmacky

So then it would seem all this is true.

5+ gets a smaller panel that allows higher PPI and better color.
This means 5+ does a have higher resolution than the 8K.
8K’s only advantage would be less SDE due to up scaling.
Backers have reported little difference in SDE between units.

Given this, I’m just not seeing the advantage of the 8K, or even why it exists?

The 5+ would seem to have somewhat higher resolution, better color, but with slightly more SDE that some backers could even see?

Well I see a lot of confusion here on the forum about the ‘resolution’, the ‘higher PPI’, etc. I think it’s important to understand that:

• When Pimax said that the 5k+ has a ‘higher PPI’, they meant in comparison to the original 5k, not to the 8k
• Yes, 5k+ has a higher resolution in terms of ‘native resolution’, the real resolution is lower of course.

I tried to depict it in a picture:

(the percentages I used are of course just an example, we won’t know until somebody opens up the 5k+)

Conclusion actually might still be a bit opaque, what I mean is the 8k has a higher resolution but the 5k+ shows more of the original data, since both are using 1440p input.

[Sjef]

@jojon

should be the size of a bounding box around the area that is visible through the lens (as demonstrated by your figures) on the transport image: i.e. a cropped out part of 2560x1440, multiplied by whatever factor is needed to optimise detail for the effects the lens.

What would be best if they’d just render the green part, at the native pixel resolution of that green box and then transport that. However I guess that’s not possible due to the scaler for example. This would have resulted in a much better picture quality for the 8k. Also it would have increased performance BIG time.

Thinking of this, why not just kill the scaler in the 8k? Then again, they’d probably need custom hardware to map that green box to the panel?

[Sjef]

@Cdaked

I have never said that it has to be substantially better; in the Pimax 4K you have to be in front of an image for a while to see SDE.

Well in theory the Pimax 8k could have been substantially better: 110 → 170 degrees = 55% bigger Fov, yet with twice the pixels the SDE could have been even substantially better than the 4k.