Pimax, it’s time to focus all ressources on bug fixing now

[neelrocker]

Hello Pimax team and everyone here,

I’m a great supporter of your project. I also understand the kickstarter nature of this project and the lower ressources at your disposal compared to big companies like Oculus/Facebook or HTC/Valve.

I was enthusiast after your roadshow with previous prototypes and the many positive feedbacks from those who had the opportunity to test those 8K prototypes encouraged me to back for a 8K headset.

After this initial tour I decided to keep quiet on the forum to let you do your work of refining the product, leading to the v5 prototype you planned to show at the CES. But what I hear from the current state of the v5 decided me to voice up and write this message.

As said in the title, it is now time to stop trying pushing the product boundaries (wider fov, brighter display etc.) and focus all your ressources exclusively on bug fixing.

Listen to me Pimax, I’m just giving a wise advice here, I don’t write this to complain or report a fault on you. I’m just sharing my analysis of the current situation and trying to give the best advice because I want this project to succeed, as you and all of us here want to.

Many (if not most) of us are very demanding VR enthusiasts. And you (pimax) must not misunderstand what it means. It doesn’t mean pushing the technical boundaries the furthest as possible at the cost of product stability.

No, it means (for me, but I’m sure many other here too) we will be very picky on bugs and flaws for the final product we will receive. It means we rank stability / bug free at a very high level and this should have ABSOLUTE priority over improving the product specs.

In my country we have the proverb « don’t have your eyes bigger than your stomac » which means you have to stay realitic about what you can achieve regarding the ressources you have at disposal. I think most of us here wouldn’t have any interest in a product with impressive specs on paper but being only half working in the end.

I and certainly many other here won’t have any fun with a headset with a convergence issue (= incorrect superposition of both images creating wrong depth of view at best, and heavy eye straining at worst), tracking issues (headset and controllers), bad lenses reflections, inefficient mura compensation. Such a headset would be unusable and would even lose a lot if not all value for reselling.

So again, don’t think too big Pimax. People were already very impressed with the v4 prototype so your goal was to consolidate this already good base and I thought you would be doing that for the v5. But instead you have chosen to try to push the specs boundaries further, introducing new bugs instead of stabilizing and polishing what you had with the v4.

This is why I am disappointed by the feedback from the CES for the v5, in my opinion you have lost time and ressources trying to push boundaries more instead of polishing the v4. Even with its little bit smaller FOV and darker display the v4 impressed most of the reviewers already so those v4 specs are enough to fullfill the nextgen VR headset we have all backed and are also still unmatched by the competition (oculus/htc).

Keep in mind most of us know the 8K won’t be the lastest VR headset we will buy. We all know VR tech will continue to improve over years and we will end replacing our 8K with a better headset one day. We just wanted a significant gap vs gen1 headset (rift/vive) and the v4 seemed to have that already, so no need for nitpicking to get the specs even better.

You already have had to delay the basestations which you will not be able to ship with the headsets as initially planned. You also had to delay the headset production for several monthes and this is maybe due to time and ressources lost by trying to improve the v4 specs further. Keep in mind you still have an advantage over your competitors, even with the v4 specs, but those competitors won’t sleep and if you keep having delays they may catch you.

So in my opinion it is not the time for hesitating now, you have to decide to put all ressources on bug fixing and polishing and stop trying to improve the specs.

I have not tried any prototype by myself but based on the v4 and v5 reviews the priorities should rank as follow:

1°) Display convergence and tracking (headset and controllers)
2°) Lenses disturbing reflections
3°) Display mura compensation and other display artifacts

Display convergence and tracking is CRITICAL priority, those are essential characteristics for a VR headset and anything below near perfect will potentially KILL the product completely.

Lenses disturbing reflections are important but at worst they won’t prevent from using the headset. They would although make it less attractive than if they were not present (= headset would be less pleasant to use and would also lose some resell value).

Same goes for mura and other display artifacts, it is better to not have them but if they were not eliminated the headset would still be interesting to use compared to gen1 rift and vive, or even vive pro.

I have not listed refresh rate because it is difficult to rank it without trying by myself and experience may also vary between people. For now I would guess 80hz is not critical if you cannot go closer to 90hz. And it is much more preferable to have a very stable 80hz than an unstable 85 or 90hz.

Beta testing :

I know you are seeking for betatesters, I can offer my help as long as I receive a beta testing unit that is not the one I backed for (= you send me a beta unit but I will still receive my backed one when the product is ready for production). I’m asking because this was not clear when you offered to send some units earlier to some selected backers to help for final bug fixing.

I’m used to beta test products, I have been doing this for several years now for a reknown gaming product brand, I’m trustworthy regarding NDAs, I have the required time for a lot of testing with a lot of games including demanding simulations requiring distant viewing (racing and flight sims), I have a very decent knowledge about VR being using my rift very often and trying to get the maximum visual quality out of it, I’m demanding about VR quality (fluidity, visual quality, upscaling, tracking, sweet spot, black level, colors, constrast, lenses artifacts etc) so I would be able to provide detailed and comprehensive feedback to help you refining the headset.

So if you are still looking for beta testers and you are interested by my profil contact me. Also I hope I didn’t look too patronizing in this post, this is not my intention at all. I just want your project to succeed and offer my help if needed. I was confident after the v4 tour, but now I’m worried after the v5 feedback from the CES. I have read you seem confident being able to fix all those issues, but I’m only sure something will be done when it has been effectively done, and only when it has been done you can know how much time, efforts, and possible compromises those fix implied. Trying to improve the specs beyond v4 specs seem a very risky path, and claiming you are confident you can fix is a risky move too. Never make promises like that, just say what has been done when it has been effectively done, and until that keep all the beta testing process behind the curtains, this must not be revealed to public like it happened at the CES.

[twack3r]

Leave it to a fellow German (I assume) to competently yet politely point out to Pimax what this entire forum has been focused on ever since the first CES reports - well done!

In short: stop feature creep, technically describe the specifications you are aiming for, de-couple delevopment from QC and communicate a roadmap. I know it’s hard, I really do, but this has to be done now or Pimax will have burned through their funding (and deadlines) quicker than you can say ‘virtual reality headset’.

[Cdaked]

@deletedpimaxrep1, @Matthew.Xu and @bacon: German or not, make @neelrocker a Beta Tester, please.

I can’t agree more: first we must focus on fixing all the problems; only when the testers consider them sufficiently overcome can we continue.

Although I believe that Pimax only sought to achieve the promised objectives in terms of brightness and horizontal FOV.

The main problem to eradicate are the distortions of the image; for the product to succeed, the image must be perfect at any angle.

The tracking is just as important, if Pimax find any kind of problem with it, you should fix it with Valve now.

The hardware and software team should focus only on this.

[brian91292]

Wait, you mean the team should be working on finishing specific details of the headset and not reading about all the complaining and demands being made on the forums? Who knew! I’m sure they had no idea what was wrong with their product before you said this, so glad you are here to point out what they need to fix! I’m sure without the same thing being repeated 1000 times on their forum they would have never figured it out, after all you have direct access to the current Pimax 8K prototype and they don’t, right?

I’m sure the forum members and reviewers who tried the headset for 30 seconds know what needs to be fixed with much more precision than the development team, you guys can see how the whole system works together and how changing one part can break another, right?

Let’s be real… everyone can sit here and speculate on what needs to be fixed for the rest of eternity; but that doesn’t change the fact that you have no idea what’s going wrong. One glitch could be the result of another fix, that’s how development goes and often times that’s what you have to work through to get to a finished product. So they broke a few things in the latest prototype, maybe they also fixed a few things transparently behind the scenes that no one would ever notice until it didn’t work. That’s how product development goes, and that’s why its generally done behind closed doors.

In the end, Pimax has brought the headset this far on their own, and it was impressive before they even received the Kickstarter money or extra investments. I don’t understand this communities constant need to nag at the Pimax team about what they need to be working on. They know what they need to be working on more than you, whether or not they are discussing the problems publicly is a completely different matter. Just because they are working on fixing bugs and not publicly disclosing every little thing that goes wrong doesn’t mean they are doing anything wrong, all it means is they are determined to fix the issues and are confident in their ability to do so.

TL/DR: Let the product developers do their job, they know what they need to fix and if they don’t they are going to lose out on a lot of potential money (a lot more than you invested into their product). If you think you have a better concept of what needs to get done than the people creating the product, think again. These guys are obviously not stupid and are probably focusing on the biggest issues before fine tuning small details.

[ricknau]

1. Tracking is a known and proven technology. I wouldn’t anticipate any problem “perfecting” it. I’m not worried.

2. Achieving a high enough refresh rate is a known technology but so far not achievable at the rates needed with the HW available at this time. Key thing is they know what it takes, no mysteries. And the demonstrated rate achieved so far may be fast enough. (At least for me. ) I’m not worried.

3. FOV and lensing seems to me to be the most difficult hurdle. I’m a little worried. I wouldn’t be surprised if it can never be made near perfect. It’s an extremely tall order to think that there is some optical design that can make something 100 deg out from center of the FOV be in focus and not distorted. I think it is possible that it is impossible. I’d say be prepared to live with some imperfection. (I think its no coincidence that their go-to demo is some underwater scene where parallel lines don’t exist and some blurriness will be less noticed.)

That said, I’ve noticed that in real life when I see movement or a flash in my periphery I tend to move my head and not just my eyes so I don’t think optical perfection is needed to gain some benefit of the wider FOV. Heck, my glasses don’t even allow me perfect focus at the extreme of my periphery. But I think it is very necessary to have no distortion and that should not take magic to fix with optical correction algorithms which we know are part of the scheme.

I presume the team includes some top notch optical engineers. They shouldn’t be chintzy in hiring the best available.

[oysta1109]

Enough of those threads telling pimax how to do their job.

Unless you have expertise and experiences in the field they need, it’s just point out the obvious to them. Getting frustrated on the team with issues they know and trying to fix is not helping.

I know ppl are passionate about this project and want to contribute something, looking around with magnifying glass is not helping

[Soarin]

^ This. Have some faith in Pimax, they are not going to ruin the opportunity they have been given.

[tristanc]

The problem is that we do not have any statement from Pimax, we do not know what problems are real and which have been solved, etc.

I think Pimax should tell the backers in what position is the prototype v5 and the roadmap are going to follow.

[Cdaked]

My comments at least try to help. Being so edge you will not convince me of anything except that you lose your nerves too easily.

How old are you?

[Cdaked]

Pimax has asked for Testers and we are trying to get a competent Tester, which to show that it is, comments what he thinks should be done and I show myself in agreement on his points. What’s wrong with that? It is very necessary to have good professional testers, in fact, we need more.

[neelrocker]

Just to make things clear, I have not written this post to point out product flaws I know Pimax is aware of.

I’m pointing out the fact they seem to spend ressources on trying to improve the specs further more instead of focusing on consolidating what they had with previous prototype, because I don’t think this is the wisest move when delivery/production schedule already had to be delayed once.

This is my opinion as an investor in this KS and I guess Pimax is seeking for such feedback from their investors or they wouldn’t have made this forum and would just stick with announcements about their progress.

Now maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m over-reacting to the v5 current state and everything is completely under control at Pimax tech team, but who knows. On my side I can just notice that bugs like disturbing reflexions for example were already reported a few monthes ago with the v4 and are still there now with this lastest prototype which was initially meant to be the most refined one before going into production.

From my experience about beta testing this work is done several monthes before production starts. For the products I have helped beta testing on the past years it was 2 to 5 monthes before going into production (for a similar complexity than this headset, maybe even less complex) and pimax haven’t even started this phase yet for a product that was still meant to start shipping in January not that long ago. And I don’t speak about internal testing, which of course I bet they are already doing but this is not beta testing with a wider audience and during which new bugs are VERY LIKELY to be discovered (and the remaing bugs after that will be discovered buy the end consumers themselves and the production process will continue to improve past the first batches produced and sold).

So when I see the company going to a show dedicated to advertising (most of the time polished) products like the CES, and communicating with us, the KS investors, their goal there is to “collect feedbacks” with a prototype having more issues than the previous one I begin to be a little bit more worried about how the story will continue in the upcoming monthes.

So maybe oysta1109 (or brian91292) you are keeping complete faith with what Pimax is currently doing but then patiently wait for your headset to reach your home. As far I’m concerned, and as one of the KS investor “I’m concerned”, I’m not that confident. I have seen projects from reknown companies ending in fiascos (or at least having significant troubles) because of being too confident in their own vision of the product and not listening to alerts sent buy customers/investors during development. I would prefer to avoid that for this Pimax 8K KS.

I have already been a bit worried earlier when Tested wasn’t able to obtain clear answers (personal opinion) from Pimax during their interview with them, and also when they were claims during the tour that previous prototypes were running at 90hz to finally discover it was not true. This affected the faith I had in Pimax but I decided to give them a chance anyway because the good feedbacks from many reviewers balanced that out.

I have stayed quiet since, not worrying much about the reported issues from previous prototypes and leaving the team doing its job. But this last sequence at the CES raised the alarm bar one rank for me. It is not a matter of receiving the product later or thinking Pimax would be incompetent. I think they are competent, but the most competent team can do mistakes and I felt a risk of taking the wrong path if at this stage of the product development the final specs are still changing and significant ressources still not dedicated to polishing and bug fixing (ideally with the help of a well organized beta test).

[Cdaked]

I think exactly the same.

[Axacuatl]

The point is, Pimax are showing signs of wanting too much, and not focussing enough on the few, yet crucial base elements which they still need to get right.

The IPD/stereoscopic issue was the dominant fault in reviews of the V2/V3, and they have not managed to improve it.

They need to abandon all the stuff which would be great to add, possibly more FOV etc., and just get the current kinks resolved. The 90 Hz point may even end up being a spec they will not achieve.

Their performance at CES showed that they are currently lacking proper focus. I and others made similar suggestions in this forum already, we would not be doing so if we were not under the impression that they were spreading their ressources too much at this stage. Remember that they already showed the 8K at CES 2017 and it seemed at the time that they would just need to add Valve‘s tracking and iron out a few kinks, and it would be ready & good. We are one year on, and comparing the reports from the two shows, they seem to have made limited progress only, and you would not expect them to conclude their development within a few months.

That‘s why some of us feel that Pimax should be reminded of some essentials of successful project management. I admit usually I would agree with your view, but here Pimax is is simply showing that they are a small group of people with a great idea and enthusiasm but sometimes lacking a bit more professionalsm.

[Heliosurge]

CES more showed there trying to rush.

Jan 2017 prototype v1
8 to 9 months later considerable improvements v2. Kickstarter.

Now they are averaging a prototype every month n half.

[denali]

Man, the chickens are restless here. Ballsack? Good night ladies.
hermione gingold pick a little, talk a little - Google Search

[brian91292]

I’m not keeping complete faith, I’m having patience and accepting the fact that I have no control over this product. Pretty simple. If this turns out to be a bad investment then oh well, at that point I’ll switch gears and start bashing Pimax rather than defending them.