Exactly this. The Quest 3 does exceptionally well against a $3500 headset. Sure AVP has maybe hit what Varjo’s current top headset should be.
Now we know both Apple and Meta have deep pockets. So the question really comes down if Meta released a headset in the $2500 to $3500 price range we’d have a proper 1 to 1 to compare with
But Cost to feature and quality including life of the product? Well no contest the Q3 wins. Not much different than VHS vs Beta. Beta overall was better but due to high costs and restricted use of hardware. VHS won out. That being said unlike Beta is not going anywhere.
Will apply pressure for others to get their sh%y straight. It is sad that the Tech has been here for quite sometime. However due to no real focus. Has been able to slip by. Though the googly eye front screen is a creepy idea remnant of old Xbox AI Milo kid
Because it needs to be at that price. Much like the early days of Oled TVs with the extremely high price to own when they first came out.
Sure the Quest 3 shouldn’t do as well as it does against AVP. But the price of ownership is reasonable dare I say for all.
What this will do is push some focus back into developing better user XP. As we have been seeing Meta ads AVP features to the Q3. The better will be to see if Meta brings something out to directly compete in around a similar price point. The question becomes is Meta really ready for it?
Maybe yes or maybe their more likely to focus on the greater market while at the same time widdling away at price to feature value.
During my first week with the AVP I hated on the eyesight feature because it adds weight to an already heavy HMD.
Taking it to my office and now using it in that setting with many people interacting with me on a daily basis has completely changed my mind: it bridges the gap way better than just having a set of cameras staring at who I’m talking to, it cues others if I am in a focus state/immersed or in AR mode and it brings across all the necessary cues we get from eye-contact and facial expressions.
I am 100% positive this feature will both remain in all AVP iterations as well as being picked up by other companies.
I am sure it will remain as well. After all you can have manga eyes.
Sure I can be useful in the ways your saying. Much like how some just want eye tracking for improved immersion in games being able to watch ppl’s eyes to gain advantage.
Is though being smart focusing on real refined business use XP. The sad thing about it being used for surgery or two is that the software application already existed and was ported to AVP.
I can see and iirc already hearing concerns if ppl wearing these in bad spaces. Much like ear buds can see this getting some quick bans potentially in public areas.
Then of course the more darker potential uses. And no not talking porn. Though imagine @Djonko has already tried some 8kUHD content.
If you see price as a relative factor, I agree. The AVP is not 7x better than the Q3. However man about features, the AVP is better than I thought. Like I tried watching netflix on my Q3, never liked it. But I will tell you, you need a VERY good high-end huge OLED TV if you want to beat the AVP movie watching experience, it’s way better than I thought it would be. Sure, if I’m at home, most of the times Id still prefer my own TV, its more comfortable without a headset. But then again, other times I’m not in a room with a good TV or not even at home, travelling etc and in those cases it’s awesome to watch a movie on it. And also, 3dtv is back with a vengeance!! I just bought avatar and it’s just so awesome on this headset, I do think this concept might finally survive. Also like said, gaming is both worse AND better on this device, depending on the type of game you play. Mixed reality games easily win on the avp and because of the more powerful gpu everything looks better. And then there are all those productivity use cases, pretty much all better on the avp
@twack3r did you already try a FoV mod? People reported that the FoV increases quite a bit without the facial interface, I just tried it and that’s indeed correct. Without it the FoV actually comes pretty close to the Q3. With the interface it’s definitely smaller (although I’m on an aftermarket interface with the Q3 which gives more foV). I dont think any aftermarket interfaces are available yet?
Yeah for the Q3 I use the AMVR facial interface, it’s awesome, really increased my FoV for my Q3. Really hoping something like this will appear for the AVP soon.
Not sure what’s taking apple so long to release in other countries. Especially if the upcoming Samsung is as good as @anon57422158 says it is, then Apple really would need to hurry up.
Anyway, I A/B-ed the Q3 a while with my AVP and if you take price into account the Q3 clearly is the winner. It’s just a great device, at a fraction of the cost. But the first thing I thought when putting it back on was “damn those pixels!!”
Sure did, in fact I have been designing around 50 iterations on an alternative headstrap (QuestPro style) with custom ‘blinders’ using PET-CF, PAHT-CF and TPU for the last month.
I finally have a setup that is extremely comfortable, only touches my forehead, uses the SoloLoop and is stable.
Well, sorry to disappoint those who are in love with the AVP, that is indeed my main use of MR tech at the moment, and as much fun Fruit Ninja is (actually, it never was to me b/c the concept gets old after 3 minutes), if that was the kind of games I would have at my disposal in MR, I probably wouldn‘t be using it anymore but spend even more time with flat games like Baldur‘s Gate 3.
So yes, I am arguing very much from the practical use to me point of view. And for that, I honestly don‘t need to experience the AVP first hand - if it doesn‘t enable me to play Eleven TT, InDeath, Contractors, AMS2, MSFS etc. in an easy, plug‘n play way (with no wires attached please), then it doesn‘t provide me personally with the same value. I opted against trying the Beyond, Crystal etc. for a bit better visuals when they mean I have more hassle, wires, etc…
As to spatial videos, I am sure the bigger the resolution is, the better. I have an Insta360 Evo camera which I use since roughly 3 years and if the lighting is good (essentially you need the sun), the results can be pretty impressive. But I admit that if the lighting is mediocre, the effect quickly wanes, and it is most impressive if you have a single person or object at a distance between 1-3 m. But I am sure the AVP improves on that too. And in this case, if taking these spatial videos is one of your main use cases, the process is hassle-free on the AVP while it is burdensome with the Insta360 Evo via PC to Q3.
But I am really excited about Apple getting into MR and pushing MR tech & UI/UX even if it isn’t applied by them in the way I would want it for me. And I consider it likely that I will get the consumer version of the AVP in 2-3 years. Especially if they can manage to get this feeling of presence of others as they are starting to imprive with their new beta personas - but still that would mean it is a second headset I get for other use cases.
But if asked to choose one of the two today or in 2,3 years - how could I with my main use cases being centered around gaming consider the AVP? The same reason why I never got into Macs, they always sucked at gaming, and that killed them for me irrespective of their gorgeous look & feel and great performance e.g. on photo editing.
Some very valid points. Though if not mistaken Q3 does have a kind of Elven Tennis .
However unlike the Crystal’s Standalone mode. AVP as @twack3r reported. ALVR has added AVP support; Something Pimax should have pursued getting support when the VD dev said at this time he doesn’t have time to support at that/this time.
At this rate the SteamVR Link app will have an app on Apple Store before pimax even has any wireless play & well I suspect pimax will only end up getting wireless going if the Wigig module materializes for sale.
As for the Mac thing agreed. Though more the planned abandonware hardware. Though Meta & others are adopting this practise as a business model to ensure future sales. Though there are projects that usually rescue abandoned hardware.
I completely understand your line of reasoning @Axacuatl and yet, as @Heliosurge correctly states, with the availablity of ALVR for AVP and Virtual Desktop in the not too distant future, the usability of the AVP has greatly expanded into the realm of applications your are interested in.
Simulators are a no brainer in the AVP and because of the excellent MR capability, I MUCH prefer racing in my MotionRig with my AVP than with my XR-4 in its current state. The same goes for any other simulator because now the constraint lies solely with the controllers.
Of course using SteamVR tracked controllers synced via Space Calibrator is an option but the friction is still there. Users have gotten impressive results using Nintendo’s Joy-Cons as motion controllers that are 6DOF tracked via the AVP’s hand tracking capacity.
There is still some jitter but the strides currently taken are impressive.
I am not arguing the AVP is currently capable of delivering as frictionless a gaming experience as the Quest, that’s for sure. But the gap is closing and for non-controller applications, it is superior.
Sure, for controller-less sims it may be okay from a friction point of view getting it set up. But that still means I would need two headsets, one for sims and another for the controller-based games. So if I had to choose one of them, it still would be a no brainer and I would get more value out of the Q3
Which was the whole point of my original post, where I argued that Zuckerberg‘s statement is not completely off, depending on the perspective, and superiority in some areas doesn‘t automatically equal being of greater value to the average user, or at least a pretty significant part of the overall users.
And I know some of you are happy with the comfort, but that would really be something I would need a longer hands-on for before considering it for sim usage, given the pretty mixed reviews it got on that part (even with the alternative strap there were a number of reviewers which didn‘t like it for longer periods).
So, to cut it short, I will skip the AVP as it doesn‘t offer me enough usability in my main use cases and is far too expensive as a mere gadget.
But it surely is an interesting piece of hardware and when they release the successor in 3 years at half the price of the AVP with some improvements and a lot of more (non-gaming) apps making good use of its capabilities, I likely will get me one. But I expect to still need a controller-equipped headset at that point in time for a range of games, so I don‘t see a realistic scenario where I could cover all of my needs with an Apple headset alone - unless Apple is smart enough to at least allow 3rd party controllers to be integrated friction-free with their headsets.
Tbh you wouldn’t really need 2 headsets in that regard. Long long ago now. A member with the P4k had an original leap motion sensor he used with a cheap Bluetooth ring controller.
He went with the controller as Hand tracking was and still is to an extent not there yet. Using gestures to simulate vive Wanda physical inputs was not great. So he used the ring controller for physical inputs with the leap tracking hands for the 6dof. So @twack3r using hand tracking on that end with simpler controllers is nothing new…
Just getting easier. The Etee controllers maybe a good pairing for this even without the SteamVR tracker.
Leap was ahead of it’s time but might have lost because of it. They wanted OEMs to buy into integrating their HT in headsets and have not been very successful in that goal. With the headset manufacturers implementing their own.
This is where pimax should have made the Crystal with cams capable of MR without needing an unmade not released yet FP. With HT capability without the leap HT module.
Of course Zuck’s statement is not entirely off. His target is more mass market average consumers whom would indeed look at things like you and I. Price vs features and product life. The Q3 like AVP are indeed imho selling at a loss to leverage money from other related revenue streams.
AVP is targetted as @Djonko said is people whom price is not an issue. Be it $2500 - $10k + yearly subscription to use.
We have essentially several enthusiasts tiers from the average joe to various tiers with increasing disposable incomes.
The higher the disposable income the less of a barrier the price is.
In reality the Q3 is no real threat to AVP any more than AVP is a threat to Q3. Main consumer target will not be affected. The truly comfortable will more than likely own both and more.
There is enough freely available data to show that other than Meta, Apple have a very hefty operating profit on every unit sold.
Once R&D comes into consideration, I guess it shows how invested even by Apple standards they are into this market.
I fully agree that if my XR-4 weren’t an incredibly love/hate device due to software at this point, I’d do 100% of my races and maybe 70% of my training in it rather than the AVP.
But man, jumping into a rig with HMD set up before the rest of the equipment gets tackled is such a reduction in friction, it’s remarkable.
Your last part is why at a loss. On the surface it looks like high profits. But you have to factor in R&D to which typically in my XP companies target to recoup those costs typically within 2 years. So until that is recovered there still so to speak in the red vs black or green. Then you have to also factor in internal and external defect ppms etc… Then what components they make in house - what is the fallout?
The base cost of components looks good if no issues
unlike Beta is not going anywhere.
tracking for improved immersion in games being able to watch ppl’s eyes to gain advantage.
? Micro OLED displays at 1/10th the price hopefully
.